Steven,
I certainly can't argue with that. But, then again, that is true of the success of ANY student!
Dr. Jane Jarrow
Yes I think it should be allowed. I've seen motivated students overcome and excel despite their handicap. With that said, I think the important word is motivated!
Matthew,
You have just identified the very LEGITIMATE concern of folks from career colleges regarding the inclusion of students with disabilities in their programs. While traditional higher ed institutions leave the "what will you do with your education" question to all students to answer, career college graduates are generally considered to be coming out of school ready to begin work immediately in their chosen field. It doesn't always happen that way, but it is the intent. For that reason, there is nothing in either the spirit or the letter of the law that prohibits you from sitting down to have that heart-to-heart talk with a student and express your very real concerns about the ramifications of a decision to pursue an area that might not have that immediate "pay back" for them. It is not inappropriate to be up front and honest. It is only inappropriate to put barriers in the way of allowing the student to choose to proceed AFTER you've had that talk.
Dr. Jane Jarrow
I don't have the first problem with someone wanting to seek education. However with the expectation of repayment on financial obligations brought on by the education, being "in many cases" dependant upon gainful employment in the feild of study. I would think it necessary to have a long meaningful conversation with the perspective student before enrollment and incurance of the financial obligation, in order to not set them up for failure upon enrollment in and completion of their chosen field of study.
Andy,
Unfortunately, what you are expressing here is exactly the kind of stereotyping that the laws were designed to put a stop to. I have a colleague who gives a presentation called, "Of Blind mechanics and hemophiliac industrial arts teachers I have known." He says that, in truth, he has only known one of each, but it was enough to teach him not to make assumptions about what someone will or will not be able to do because of disability. You say that when you need a doctor, you want the best. Do you check out the medical school class rank of the doctors you see? Or do you assume that if they graduated from medical school, they must be capable doctors -- except, of course, if they have a disability and had accommodation in which case they AREN'T really capable. The argument really doesn't track. Are there things that people simply cannot do because of their disability? Of course. But if they have achieved the same credentals, then they CAN do those things, and to discount that achievement because of disability is just... wrong! (as my teenage daughter would say)
Dr. Jane Jarrow
As an employer would you hire a blind person to design video games? No two people are equal, that is a fact of life. I am not saying that people with disabilities are of no value, I am saying that just like all of us, there are things in life we are not going to be able to do and we need to deal with that reality.
When I need a doctor I want the best, not someone who was given more time to complete tasks because they have ADHD. I don't want a doctor that wanted the opportunity to be a doctor. I want a doctor that surpassed the highest possible standards to become a doctor.
If a program has to be altered for a person to be successful are they truly successful? I say in most fields yes, but in some fields no. Again this is just a reality of life.
Gerald,
Absolutely! And THAT is what Section 504 and the ADA are all about... giving people with disabilities the opportunity to try and to pursue their interests in just the same way that everyone else has the chance to try. Some will be successful, some will have to alter their goals to be successful -- and maybe some will fail But that makes them just like the rest of our student pool. We owe students with disabilities the dignity of making their own decisions and being in control of their own destiny.
Dr. Jane Jarrow
Sean,
I couldn't have said it better or agree with you more. I think checking to see WHY a student is enrolled in the course of study may make significant difference in how one approaches, and encourages, their pursuit of the field.
Dr. Jane Jarrow
Yes i think they should be allowed, Why not? if they are able to complete the course, who is to say they cant get a job. There are alot of strong willed ppl out there..
The appropriateness of enrollment would depend on the student's expectations. If they were enrolled in the course for personal satisfaction or gain I would say more power to them. If they were enrolled with the plans of being highly successful in this career choice I believe a serious discussion would need to take place between the instructor and student. Not specifically to talk the student out of it, but to make sure they are aware of what they are getting involved in and what the expectations will be when they finish their schooling.
Ronald,
I agree wholeheartedly. The career educators tell us that something like 60 percent of the jobs people will old in 10 years don't exist today. We should not downplay the importance of education for education's sake. How students USE what they learn is up to them, as it always has been. That is not always an easy sell at a career school that tends to think of students moving from the classroom to the world of (immediately available) work. But I agree with you -- it is the logical way to think of all this.
Dr. Jane Jarrow
Appropriate: Due to their right to choose and their right to an education, all people have a right to any education they prefer, employment opportunity or not. The only boundary would be safety.....for them and the others around them.
Patricia,
No matter how great the motivation, there will be some things that people can do. My experience suggests that students -- with and without disabilities -- need to come to that realization on their own. Only then are they prepared to be more realistic, and to consider alternatives.
Dr. Jane Jarrow
I think it would b hard to deny someone a "dream/goal" he or she have for themselves. If he or she is given the appropriate curriculum, let that student be aware of the demands of studies he or she will be facing. If he or she can do it--why not!! Go for it!! But working in the medical field- its hard to see those with hand deformities or being blind to work in this field..
Ron,
Ah, yes -- those "success stories" always make it worthwhile. I assume you meant "physically disabled" students, not "physically demanding", right? GRIN
Dr. Jane Jarrow
Charles,
Well said! The issue of unrealistic expectations is not limited to students with disabilities, nor is the solution to deal with the issue ONLY for students with disabilities (because their limits are more evident). I applaud your suggestion here.
Dr. Jane Jarrow
I have had many physically demanding students in the last 20 years and it does put more demand on the instructor but it is worth it when you hear of them getting a job and are doing well at it.
I believe there are many among all students, disabled and not, who don't realize what is actually expected in their field of study. I feel all who are in the education buisness should encourage students and potential students to research more about their field of study, employment opportunities, job requirements and duties therein.
Andy,
Do you make judgements about the likelihood of success for students without disabilities, or do you let them take their chances if they meet the requirements for the program. Students with disabilities have been limited for many years because of other people's expectations. That is a big part of what the laws were meant to prevent. Being realistic about what the field is all about is always appropriate. Deciding FOR a student that the field is not for him/her is overstepping.
Dr. Jane Jarrow
I don't feel that it is appropriate to encourage a student to enroll or continue in a course of study that they will not be physically able to perform if the student thinks they are going to use the new information to make money. I firmly believe in equal opportunity to learn and I also believe that realities of situations should also be addressed.
